| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Drew81 |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 02:24:44
I have 2 female Corn Snakes that live in the same vivarium together. They are both around 6 months old and live on Aspen bedding and have a heat mat for heat under half of the viv. They are fed once a week on Sundays and have plenty of hiding spots available to them. Temps in the warm end are around 25-30.
In the 3-4 months that I have owned them they have shed many, many times. It amazes me as sometimes they finish one shed and go almost right into another one... sometimes in the very same week. One of them will eat while in shed and the other won't usually but will on the odd occasion. She did last week.
There has never been any problems until now though.
The one who won't eat in shed had just gone into a new shedding period very recently. The only odd behaviour I noticed was that she was out and about, moving around while still in shed and looking pale. I found this weird because she, like all my snakes, tend to stay hidden during shed. Just yesterday I found her in the water dish which is also normal and most of my snakes do this during shed. Then this morning when I woke up I found her in the middle of the viv, lifeless and upside down :(
There was no warning at all that anything was wrong and she had been behaving as normal other than being out more often during this shed. No signs of any kind of illness and no signs of fighting with the other snake. I would have been amazed if they had ever fought as they got on so well and could regularly be found curled up together.
Both snakes are fed separately and outside of the viv as well so no issues there.
I can't see any reason for why my snake died other than something to do with her current shedding. Has anyone here had anything like this happen before?
I've been feeling so sad all day. This is the first time I have ever lost a snake and I have never even had one be ill before :( Will my surviving snake be caused any distress because her friend is missing or do snakes not generally be bothered? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kellog |
Posted - 16/03/2014 : 08:43:37
Wish there was a 'like' button on here because I'd definitely 'like' your last comment Drew  .
Xxx
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| mrmagicpants |
Posted - 13/03/2014 : 19:04:16
quote:
Originally posted by Drew81
Thank you very much Kellog 
Whilst it's never fully possible to know what tone a message is written in, I like to think I'm pretty good at getting the point if it's written right. Everybody who has given me advice here has been very nice about it and I truly appreciate it. I also much rather people point out things if they think they need to rather than everyone just agreeing for the sake of it as that way nothing gets solved. For instance my original point in this thread was about my snake dying while in shed but the discussion led to heat mats after I had said which one mine was and noted the temps. People could very easily have overlooked that and not pointed it out and I would be carrying on thinking my heat mat is fine. Which we now know it isn't ideal but is at least safe enough in the interim.
If i'm willing enough to ask for advice then I am willing enough to listen to both advice and criticism where appropriate and not take offence. There are people on here who have been keeping snakes for a hell of a lot longer than me and I would never profess to know all there is to know about them.
Well said mate. This site is a gold mine of advice and help. |
| Drew81 |
Posted - 13/03/2014 : 16:58:12
Thank you very much Kellog
Whilst it's never fully possible to know what tone a message is written in, I like to think I'm pretty good at getting the point if it's written right. Everybody who has given me advice here has been very nice about it and I truly appreciate it. I also much rather people point out things if they think they need to rather than everyone just agreeing for the sake of it as that way nothing gets solved. For instance my original point in this thread was about my snake dying while in shed but the discussion led to heat mats after I had said which one mine was and noted the temps. People could very easily have overlooked that and not pointed it out and I would be carrying on thinking my heat mat is fine. Which we now know it isn't ideal but is at least safe enough in the interim.
If i'm willing enough to ask for advice then I am willing enough to listen to both advice and criticism where appropriate and not take offence. There are people on here who have been keeping snakes for a hell of a lot longer than me and I would never profess to know all there is to know about them.
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| Kellog |
Posted - 13/03/2014 : 08:09:38
I'm so sorry to hear about you losing your job. Tough times  .
It seems as though you are really on top of what's going on in her viv, which is good. I wanted to thank you for taking on board everything that's been said and suggested without taking offence. It's nice to offer support to someone who so obviously cares and is open to advice without going on the defensive.
Please let us know how your snakes are getting on. I'd be particularly interested in knowing if the constant shedding continues after this total change in her circumstances, now being housed alone and in her new viv.
Xxx
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| Drew81 |
Posted - 11/03/2014 : 15:08:26
Sorry, meant to add to that about the tape in the viv. I honestly would never use tape in any viv whether it be snake or not except on this occasion it was the only way to properly secure the paper towel to the heat mat. As it is though it was literally one piece of tape wrapped around the flex of the heat mat where the flex joins to the actual mat so that it secures the paper towel. So if you can visualise what I mean, the bit of tape is around the base of the flex, completely flattened against it. I have made absolutely certain the tape has no gaps or any way for anything to get underneath it. Not even a piece of aspen. I know to you guys who can only go on my description that it may cause concern but I've seen what tape can do to snakes so you can be sure I have made certain this can't happen here. It's not the same as a piece of tape securing a wire to a wall where it leaves a tiny gap on each side of the wire allowing the snake to poke it's nose in and make the gap wider until it gets stuck in there. There is literally no way the snake can get under this tape. |
| Drew81 |
Posted - 11/03/2014 : 14:59:37
My heat mat certainly does appear to be a bit of a mystery!
Unfortunately I was made redundant from my job just a few weeks back and whilst I am looking for work again I am not really in a position to afford a new mat and stat and am trying to make the best of what I have whilst obviously trying to ensure the well being of all the animals too.
With my heat mat, leaving aside what the thermometers and temps guns say, at any given time when the mat has been on and running for a while, if I touch it myself it is never actually HOT. Only WARM. It is the same with the other mats we have here in the house which are the same brand and model only in different sizes.
I tend to trust my temp gun more though than any of my thermometers. Especially so this particular thermometer in my snakes viv. It fluctuates wildly whereas my gun is more consistent. I have even checked different areas of the mat as suggested and it is still very consistent.
I looked in to the viv just now and my snake was curled up in her hide which is just above the heat mat. I moved the hide and the snake, uncovered the heat mat and checked the temps. Thermometer claimed it to be 37c while the gun claimed it to be 29c (checked the exact same spot the probe was on with gun). I then touched it myself and whilst a human hand can't detect the exact temp, I can certainly say without any doubt that it was nowhere near 37c! I appreciate that a snake would feel heat in a different way to a human but I know this mat never runs hot, only warm and never actually above 30c according to my gun. I use the same gun with my frogs, my dragons, my geckos, my chameleon and my other snakes and it always provides what I believe are consistent readings. I've never been keen on any of those digital probe thermometers as they do seem to fluctuate a lot and temps just don't jump so extremely like that.
So I don't really know what's going on with this thing and I can certainly see why and appreciate the fact you are all concerned by it. I just don't know what else to do though in the meantime except constantly monitor it like I'm doing until I can sort out a new one.
On a side note: This may not have any significance at all but thought it just worth a mention. I know that most heat mats on the market are those really thin ones where you can see the heat elements inside the clear plastic. This one I have, made by Swell, is very different in that it is much thicker and totally encased where you can't see the internals. Due to the thickness I am going to assume the internals could be very different to that of other heat mats. |
| SilverWings |
Posted - 11/03/2014 : 10:47:07
The issue I have with heat mats is that they can indeed be different temperatures in different areas. I was moving around our king snakes tank the other day and put a new hide in on top of the mat (this left half the mat with just substrate and half covered by the hide). Checked the temps before letting her loose, the side with just substrate was the right temps but the side under the floor of the hide was a whopping 45C!! I checked under the floor of the hide because I know the king loves to get under anything she can, and I'm glad I did. I didn't think a thin piece of plastic could cause such a huge difference. Now I've made sure the stat probes are under or in the hides, I'd hate to think what might have happened to Boots if I hadn't checked where I did o.O |
| Kellog |
Posted - 11/03/2014 : 08:25:29
I'm glad she seems to be 'happy' exploring her viv. Must be nice for you to get her in there.
A few points. Firstly, and most importantly, PLEASE take out the tape you've used to stick the paper towel down. I know you say it's stuck securely but it's just not worth the risk. Snakes and tape don't go together, as this shows - http://www.thecornsnake.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24916 Your substrate contains some dust which can work its way under the tape, no matter how well stuck down it is, and that will loosen it. It just isn't worth the risk.
Normally you wouldn't need to worry about your snake coming into contact with the heatmat, because it would be controlled by a thermostat and you'd have it set at a temperature the snake could handle. Lots of people don't bother covering their mats, except with a small sprinkling of substrate. Personally I have vinyl slate tiles over mine and then they are weighed down with heavy hides so there is no risk of the snakes going underneath, although again this shouldn't be an issue if the mat is controlled properly as long as the snake can't get trapped under there.
With a normal set-up, where you have a heatmat controlled by a separate thermostat, you'd be able to tweak the thermostat until you were getting the temperature you wanted in the viv but this isn't possible with yours. It is concerning that you're getting temps over 30oC. If it seems that that is regularly happening I'd urge you to change the heatmat for one you can control. Yes, your snake can move to the cool end to escape the heat but they don't feel it like we do and often aren't aware of how warm/hot things are. I think I'm right in saying that temps that high for too long can cause neurological issues.
I have a temp gun as well as digital thermometers and I must admit that I found the gun very frustrating. I was getting different temps from different parts of the heatmats and often it was very different to what my digital thermometers were saying, I do still use it occasionally but actually trust my thermometers more.
I'm very glad that you are getting better temps for her but am still concerned about this particular mat.
Xxx
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| Drew81 |
Posted - 10/03/2014 : 23:22:18
quote:
Originally posted by mrmagicpants
Hi Mate, I'm by know means an expert but it's worth bearing in mind that the substrate will act as insulation so while the temp on top may be lower underneath will get warmer.
Yeah I checked it underneath the substrate just to be sure it wasn't too warm under there but after monitoring it for a whole day it can't seem to exceed 30c underneath the area of substrate where the mat is. There is only about a 1cm layer of substrate (Aspen) covering it but it's enough to make the temp on top of the substrate read at 26c. |
| mrmagicpants |
Posted - 10/03/2014 : 19:57:29
Hi Mate, I'm by know means an expert but it's worth bearing in mind that the substrate will act as insulation so while the temp on top may be lower underneath will get warmer. |
| Drew81 |
Posted - 10/03/2014 : 13:19:01
Well I got my surviving snake moved into her new viv last night and she seemed very happy to go off exploring as soon as I put her in.
So I went with the heat mat inside the wooden viv. I know that having it outside will provide no heat at all as wood won't conduct the heat. I was however concerned about the snake having direct contact with the heat mat if she burrows under the aspen so I wrapped the heat mat in several layers of paper towel and taped it all down securely so she can't crawl in there. I also made sure the tape was firmly down and that there were no gaps were she could put her head and get stuck.
I moved her in there last night so I wasn't able to check the temps as by that time the heat mat was off. So when I looked the morning after the heat mat had been on a while, I was alarmed to find the temps reading 35c! I have the thermometer probe sitting directly on top of the heat mat above the paper towel layers. So I moved back the aspen and used my heat gun directly on the heat mat which read only 30c. I then covered it over again with the aspen and checked again with the temp gun and it now read 26c. So according to my gun which I trust more than my thermometer, my snake can only feel temps of a max of 30c in there and that's right up on the heat mat. I have been keeping an eye on it today and even though my thermometer is fluctuating, every time I double check it with the gun, it's not getting any higher than 30c.
Kinda surprised as my thermometer is a digital one by Exo Terra which I had thought to be quite reliable. Maybe not so much in this case.
So at least in this new viv my snake can get temps up to 30c instead of the 26-27c she was getting in the faunarium. Then she can go off into the cooler areas if she wants less heat. I didn't want to disturb her today so I don't know where she chose to sleep/hide but she has a cave, a log and a little pot type thing, all of which she can curl up in. They are all in different temp spots in the viv so she can choose.
I also put a light in there as the viv is very dark without it even during the day. It's an old UVB bulb that was past it's UV date so only gives out light and not UV. Figured that was ok as Corn Snakes don't need UV anyway plus with it being that type of bulb it isn't giving out any real heat either and messing with the temps in the viv. |
| Kellog |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 08:31:58
This forum has never been about flaming Drew, unlike another well known one I could mention  . All that we're concerned about is the well being of the snakes and you can't ensure that unless you offer not only advice but also support to the owner. It's been obvious from your comments how much you care and that you haven't gone into this without looking into it. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, there is a lot of conflicting information and misinformation out there and that causes problems. But what's important is that you are somewhere you feel comfortable asking questions, so keep asking them!
I'm glad both your snakes are doing well. Please let us know how the one 'left behind' adapts to her new viv. By the sounds of it there shouldn't be any issue .
Xxx
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| Drew81 |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 00:36:21
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to comment on this thread and offer advice. I truly appreciate each and every one of you doing so. I also appreciate that nobody here has taken me for some stupid reptile owner that didn't do research before buying an animal... or at least not openly anyway! lol! I can assure you that I did do a lot of research into all the reptiles I own before I bought them and have many books and have visited many forums and internet sites about them all. Trouble is I have been on other forums where if you dare ask a question you are automatically seen as not knowledgeable enough to own a reptile! Glad it's not like that here! :)
Not that she was a part of this story anyway but my other snake who was my first and has always lived alone is also doing fine. She's already got a big viv but is getting it redecorated very soon.
The other snake who lived with the one that died is still doing fine and following a delay due to some dodgy locking nuts on the new viv, she is going into it tomorrow. Thank you Kellog for pointing out about the guard for the bulb. I was going to do that anyway but it's still very considerate of you to point it out in case I had forgotten. |
| Kellog |
Posted - 08/03/2014 : 08:17:19
I totally support what Gingerpony has said and know that she talks from experience, both with keeping corns and veterinary. I'm glad that you are reassessing how to heat your corns new viv. You need to remember that the diet and metabolism of snakes, leopard geckos and frogs is very different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the other.
One point, which I'm sure you'll have thought of, make sure that the bulb has a guard around it.
I do hope you're able to solve this issue and get the viv to the sort of temps your corn needs. Please let us know how you get on when you take your snake to be checked over by the vet. May be worth mentioning the frequent shedding, although this may resolve itself now the snake is living along.
Xxx
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| Drew81 |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 21:26:00
quote:
Originally posted by gingerpony
I think a traditional mat and stat (preferably a pulse but on/offs are ok) would be the way forward.
With a stat probe and thermometer probe both on the heatmat the temp is constantly monitored and corrected.
I would suspect the temperature control/heating method is the most likely cause for an impaction. We use the type of heatmats linked to above at work, and whilst they are incredibly useful in that (veterinary) environment, I don't feel they are suitable for reptile keeping.
I'm guessing you mean that you think my heat mat doesn't provide a high enough temperature to help the snake fully digest their meal? I just never thought one of these heat mats would be that bad since they work perfectly for my mums Leopard Gecko and my Frogs who all live at extremely similar temps.
In this case I will do as I was going to do in the new viv and add in a low wattage bulb in addition to the heat mat and see what temps I get from that and take it from there. |
| gingerpony |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 16:35:42
I think a traditional mat and stat (preferably a pulse but on/offs are ok) would be the way forward.
With a stat probe and thermometer probe both on the heatmat the temp is constantly monitored and corrected.
I would suspect the temperature control/heating method is the most likely cause for an impaction. We use the type of heatmats linked to above at work, and whilst they are incredibly useful in that (veterinary) environment, I don't feel they are suitable for reptile keeping. |
| Drew81 |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 12:48:12
Admittedly I totally forgot to ask the vet about the constant shedding as it went completely out of my mind at the time. As has been suggested though I think I will take my other snake in to be looked at just to be on the safe side. I'd rather find out she's fine and pay for the checkup than not pay and find her dead sooner or later.
At the time I bought these 2 snakes, I also got a 3rd. The 3rd one was bought by my mother and put in it's own faunarium since we knew it to be male as it was sexed as a male by the breeder on the day we bought it. The other 2 (my 2) were sexed as female. I never knew sexing could be rather inaccurate so right enough I could have ended up with a male/female living together. They had been together for around 3 months or so before one of them died.
The one who survived certainly seems to be doing ok though. Her behaviour hasn't changed in any way and she comes out in the evening and curls up on top of her log on the warm side as usual. She has other places to sleep and hide but her usual spot is inside the log. She has a cave on the cold side which she will sometimes go into as well.
As regards the heatmat, I have checked all 3 that we own and none of them can manage to reach temps of 45c. So I don't think that I have a faulty one in with my snakes or anything. I think it's just a case the mats aren't as powerful as they are advertised at. As far as raising the temp goes... well I have just acquired a new Vivexotic vivarium (they were in a Exo Terra Faunarium) and I am going to be moving my sole snake into that tomorrow. Can I install my heatmat into that vivarium bearing in mind I can't have it on the outside as this is a wooden vivarium? It would be buried under the aspen but I am worried with it inside the viv can the snake get burned on it even though it doesn't get that warm? I was going to use the heatmat and add a low wattage bulb above just to get an extra few degrees of heat in there for her. On the other hand though going from a plastic viv to a wooden one might increase the temp on it's own anyway since the plastic is a poor insulator.
What do you guys think? |
| Kellog |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 07:46:43
I'm so glad you've got an explanation for why your snake died Drew, even if it is a confusing one. I second what Silverwings has said about it maybe being a good idea to get your other snake checked out as well. Did you ask your reptile vet about the almost constant shedding? It will be interesting to see if that continues now that it's alone.
I'm sorry you were given bad advice about cohabiting . It is down to personal choice and there are a lot of people who do it without any issues but for me the big thing is that there is always the chance of something going wrong so why risk it? It is interesting that the snake who died had started to produce eggs as it makes me wonder if you actually had a male and female living together. Sexing isn't accurate, I have a snake that was probed as male and then laid infertile eggs a few months later. This is one of the reasons cohabiting is a risk, because you can never be sure.
It's interesting that the mat you're using is the one I linked you to and that you aren't getting higher temps from it. Ideally you want the warm end to be 27 - 29oC. If the heatmat was on a normal stat I'd suggest you tweaking it up a bit as 26oC is a bit low for my liking but obviously that's not possible.
How is the corn that's been left behind doing?
Xxx
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| SilverWings |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 22:14:31
I would still get the other snake checked out too, as she has been shedding excessively as well... |
| smart bunny |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 21:53:44
Sorry for your loss :( At least you know the cause so no longer need to worry the other snake could catch something. |
