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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2014 : 02:24:44
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I have 2 female Corn Snakes that live in the same vivarium together. They are both around 6 months old and live on Aspen bedding and have a heat mat for heat under half of the viv. They are fed once a week on Sundays and have plenty of hiding spots available to them. Temps in the warm end are around 25-30.
In the 3-4 months that I have owned them they have shed many, many times. It amazes me as sometimes they finish one shed and go almost right into another one... sometimes in the very same week. One of them will eat while in shed and the other won't usually but will on the odd occasion. She did last week.
There has never been any problems until now though.
The one who won't eat in shed had just gone into a new shedding period very recently. The only odd behaviour I noticed was that she was out and about, moving around while still in shed and looking pale. I found this weird because she, like all my snakes, tend to stay hidden during shed. Just yesterday I found her in the water dish which is also normal and most of my snakes do this during shed. Then this morning when I woke up I found her in the middle of the viv, lifeless and upside down :(
There was no warning at all that anything was wrong and she had been behaving as normal other than being out more often during this shed. No signs of any kind of illness and no signs of fighting with the other snake. I would have been amazed if they had ever fought as they got on so well and could regularly be found curled up together.
Both snakes are fed separately and outside of the viv as well so no issues there.
I can't see any reason for why my snake died other than something to do with her current shedding. Has anyone here had anything like this happen before?
I've been feeling so sad all day. This is the first time I have ever lost a snake and I have never even had one be ill before :( Will my surviving snake be caused any distress because her friend is missing or do snakes not generally be bothered? |
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witchy
Egg
United Kingdom
91 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 07:49:08
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So sorry for your loss.
It sounds as if a number of things may be going on....
To keep shedding so quickly could indicate a problem. It is not usual for corns to shed then go blue so quickly, especially repeatedly & could be caused by something in the enclosure or by less than optimal conditions.
Cohabiting corns is a controversial subject & not recommended as they are solitary animals, stress can occur due to competition & its much harder to see any illness.
Moving on, this is a good time to check husbandry to give your remaining snake optimum care.... Check temperatures, you don't mention a thermostat & there's quite a temperature range so take a look there.
If you give us more info re your set up we can offer more help.
Your remaining snake will not be bothered, they are solitary so she will be perfectly happy on her own. |
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 09:01:05
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I'm so sorry for your loss Drew  . That must have been such a shock. And the not knowing why it happened can't be helping.
I agree with a lot of what Witchy said. It does seem strange that they seem to be almost continually either in blue or shedding. I think at that age they should be shedding around every 4/6 weeks. According to this site - http://www.anapsid.org/signs.html stress can cause a change in shedding patterns. But I don't think we can just assume that as the cause.
I think your set-up does need looking at. Ideally you don't want the warm end temps dropping below 27oC. Are you using an on/off stat? How are you measuring your temps?
Your other snake may take time to adjust to being alone. This is NOT because she 'misses' the snake that has died but because she has become, in a sense, institutionalised and therefore used to having the other snake there. She may go off her food for a bit but I think, in the long run, this will be better for her and you may even notice positive changes in her behaviour.
If it was me i would be concerned, as the snakes were housed together, and think that a conversation with a reptile vet may be worthwhile. Hopefully this will help you find one near you - http://www.reptilevets.co.uk/
Once again, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Xxx
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 16:22:38
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Thanks for the advice folks.
Some time ago I had actually posted on the forum about the frequent shedding of these 2 snakes but I was assured it was ok and was normal to some degree. So I never really thought any more of it and they never showed any signs of illness or abnormal behaviour so I figured everything was ok in that regard.
As far as temps go I have a heat mat in there covering half of the viv. It isn't attached to a thermostat but it does have an inbuilt stat. The stat doesn't let you set the temps you want but rather it regulates it so that it can't go above a max temp to take away the risk of getting too hot. The mat is under their viv which is an Exo Terra plastic viv. The biggest one they produce. Again I was assured this was fine for two snakes of such a small size. I was also assured because they were both female that co-habitation was also fine... just not with two males or a mix. I was actually just getting ready to start building a new bigger viv for them both since they have grown up a little. I have an Exo Terra thermometer in there and the probe is buried in the aspen on the warm side. The temp can fluctuate by a few degrees depending on ambient temp in the house as well but it pretty much always reads around the 26-27c mark. It can go higher or lower but not very often. Lower when the mat is off obviously and higher on a very warm day but I have never seen it go beyond 30c. I also use a temp gun as a backup measure to ensure my thermometer is reading correctly.
I have a really great vet in my city who is also an expert with exotics so I am going to take the snake to him and see what he thinks from looking at it. Not sure if I want to go as far as having a post mortem done or not. I'd like to know the cause but also feel a bit sad at having my pet cut up to find out!
If you need to know anything else about my set up please just let me know. |
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 19:59:57
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| Just got back from the vets. Decided to leave my snake in to be looked at and see if the vet can determine the cause of death. His initial thoughts are that it could be virus related but he's going to draw blood from her and have a look first. Will be getting her back on Wednesday so I can bury her. Just wasn't fond of the idea of her ending up in a bin afterwards as all my pets are more than just pets to me as I am very attached to them all. |
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witchy
Egg
United Kingdom
91 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 07:57:45
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I think you made a good decision re the vet, at least you may get some answers & can get treatment for your other one if needed.
Re your heat mat, I have not seen the one you describe or heard much about them, I'm hoping kellog or someone else knows more & can advise, but from the way you describe it I'm not sure I like the sound of it & if I were you would look at getting a standard mat & thermostat as it sounds as if the mat isn't ideal. |
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 09:04:23
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I'm glad you have a nearby vet that can help and that you are getting it checked out to see why your snake died. Unfortunately the health of the other snake is at risk at the moment so I do think its vital. I looked back through your posts and see that you did ask about the seemingly constant shedding. I'm sorry you didn't get any response about it. Cohabiting is a very 'hot' topic within corn snake keeping but personally I would never advise it under any circumstances, no matter what the age or sex of the snakes. This is just one example of why, if your snake died of an illness there is a chance the other has it. I am not wanting to rub it in, I'm just sorry you were assured it was ok to do this and the risks weren't pointed out to you sooner.
As for the heatmat, I'm with Witchy about not being sure of a heatmat with an inbuilt stat. The only one I could find was this one - http://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/reptile-supplies/reptile-heating-equipment-414/heat-mats-450/swell-pro-heat-mats-322315.html According to the details it keeps a constant heat of 45oC, so I'm guessing that even under a plastic viv the temps would be above 30oC. Also if the thermometer probe is lying flat on the heatmat (or above the area where it is in your case) it should only be reading the temp where your snake lies, the ambient temp shouldn't effect it that much. I use Habistat Pulse stats and in all my vivs the digital thermometers show temps that barely fluctuate. It may be worth revisiting how to set-up the viv and whether you could make some changes, but that is down to you.
I totally understand why you don't want the vet to dispose of your snake after doing the tests. That's something you need to do yourself, so you can properly say goodbye. I do hope you've got friends and family around you who understand that she was more than 'just a snake'.
Xxx
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 16:28:44
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firstly, sorry for your loss
I'm not aware of any heatmats on the market (except the one Kellog linked to above) that have an inbuilt stat............though I've not bought any new equipment for a long time. I doubt that shedding was the cause of death, there are various things with your setup which could cause stress which could lead to ill health but again, not really death. some just die. it's rubbish but sometimes it does just happen, though if there are any husbandry issues that could cause stress these are easily rectified and at least then you won't blame yourself |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 12:51:22
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So I got the results of the post mortem on my snake today. The official cause of death was impaction.
Seeing as I feed all of my snakes outside of their vivs to prevent them accidentally eating a piece of aspen bedding, I was naturally puzzled as to how she got impacted. The vet said there was nothing in her system that shouldn't have been in there but he also noticed she had just started to produce eggs. The impaction was so far down he said that even if it had been spotted, there was nothing that could have been done with medication by that point. He tested the snake for parasites and the like and there was nothing of that nature.
So at least I know there is no virus or illness to worry about so my other snake that was in the same viv should be just fine.
As for the heat mat I am using, it is indeed the one linked to by Kellog. I originally bought one of these for my tree frogs and it worked out perfectly. It never gets too hot and keeps my frogs at a perfect temp with only about 1-2 degrees of fluctuation.
So I bought another when I got these 2 snakes. I have even tested it outside of the viv, after being left on for a few hours and then pointing the temp gun at it... and it never reads anything as high as 45c. Nowhere near it. I know the stat is inbuilt to prevent it going above 45c but I don't think it is an issue as it can't seem to actually get that hot anyway.
In fact, my mother, who owns a Leopard Gecko has one of these heat mats as well and it works perfectly there too.
In my snakes viv currently the temp always sits at about 26c at the hot end. The fluctuation is never more than a degree or two and I have the probe sitting just below the aspen at the warm end. The mat is on the outside of the viv. I always saw my two corns in that viv going freely between the hot and the cool end. They never favoured one more than the other which if they did would suggest temps that are too high or too low.
I know an ideal temp range for corn snakes is 21-30 from cold end to warm end so surely my 26 is ok? Or do you suggest I make it hotter?
My other corn snake lives in a big vivarium as she is a good bit older and she lives alone as she was my first snake. With her I use a guarded ceramic heater as that was how I started out and it always has worked out fine so never felt the need to switch her to a heat mat. I've had her for about a year. She certainly never sheds as frequently as the two who lived together did.
I was assured though 2 female corns can live together peacefully and my two definitely did. Maybe I just got lucky then or something but they were doing ok in that regard. I don't have any plans to get another one to go in with the one who is left behind on her own though anyway. |
Edited by - Drew81 on 06/03/2014 12:53:13 |
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smart bunny
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5091 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 21:53:44
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| Sorry for your loss :( At least you know the cause so no longer need to worry the other snake could catch something. |
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SilverWings
Yearling
United Kingdom
740 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 22:14:31
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| I would still get the other snake checked out too, as she has been shedding excessively as well... |
2.2.3 Corn snakes; Red, Rosie, Liana, Checkers, Luna, Diego, Snowman
1.0 Taiwanese Beauty Snake; Aleron
1.0 Green Anoles; Doug
1.0 Greyhound; Lee |
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 07:46:43
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I'm so glad you've got an explanation for why your snake died Drew, even if it is a confusing one. I second what Silverwings has said about it maybe being a good idea to get your other snake checked out as well. Did you ask your reptile vet about the almost constant shedding? It will be interesting to see if that continues now that it's alone.
I'm sorry you were given bad advice about cohabiting . It is down to personal choice and there are a lot of people who do it without any issues but for me the big thing is that there is always the chance of something going wrong so why risk it? It is interesting that the snake who died had started to produce eggs as it makes me wonder if you actually had a male and female living together. Sexing isn't accurate, I have a snake that was probed as male and then laid infertile eggs a few months later. This is one of the reasons cohabiting is a risk, because you can never be sure.
It's interesting that the mat you're using is the one I linked you to and that you aren't getting higher temps from it. Ideally you want the warm end to be 27 - 29oC. If the heatmat was on a normal stat I'd suggest you tweaking it up a bit as 26oC is a bit low for my liking but obviously that's not possible.
How is the corn that's been left behind doing?
Xxx
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 12:48:12
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Admittedly I totally forgot to ask the vet about the constant shedding as it went completely out of my mind at the time. As has been suggested though I think I will take my other snake in to be looked at just to be on the safe side. I'd rather find out she's fine and pay for the checkup than not pay and find her dead sooner or later.
At the time I bought these 2 snakes, I also got a 3rd. The 3rd one was bought by my mother and put in it's own faunarium since we knew it to be male as it was sexed as a male by the breeder on the day we bought it. The other 2 (my 2) were sexed as female. I never knew sexing could be rather inaccurate so right enough I could have ended up with a male/female living together. They had been together for around 3 months or so before one of them died.
The one who survived certainly seems to be doing ok though. Her behaviour hasn't changed in any way and she comes out in the evening and curls up on top of her log on the warm side as usual. She has other places to sleep and hide but her usual spot is inside the log. She has a cave on the cold side which she will sometimes go into as well.
As regards the heatmat, I have checked all 3 that we own and none of them can manage to reach temps of 45c. So I don't think that I have a faulty one in with my snakes or anything. I think it's just a case the mats aren't as powerful as they are advertised at. As far as raising the temp goes... well I have just acquired a new Vivexotic vivarium (they were in a Exo Terra Faunarium) and I am going to be moving my sole snake into that tomorrow. Can I install my heatmat into that vivarium bearing in mind I can't have it on the outside as this is a wooden vivarium? It would be buried under the aspen but I am worried with it inside the viv can the snake get burned on it even though it doesn't get that warm? I was going to use the heatmat and add a low wattage bulb above just to get an extra few degrees of heat in there for her. On the other hand though going from a plastic viv to a wooden one might increase the temp on it's own anyway since the plastic is a poor insulator.
What do you guys think? |
Edited by - Drew81 on 07/03/2014 12:51:04 |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 16:35:42
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I think a traditional mat and stat (preferably a pulse but on/offs are ok) would be the way forward.
With a stat probe and thermometer probe both on the heatmat the temp is constantly monitored and corrected.
I would suspect the temperature control/heating method is the most likely cause for an impaction. We use the type of heatmats linked to above at work, and whilst they are incredibly useful in that (veterinary) environment, I don't feel they are suitable for reptile keeping. |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2014 : 21:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerpony
I think a traditional mat and stat (preferably a pulse but on/offs are ok) would be the way forward.
With a stat probe and thermometer probe both on the heatmat the temp is constantly monitored and corrected.
I would suspect the temperature control/heating method is the most likely cause for an impaction. We use the type of heatmats linked to above at work, and whilst they are incredibly useful in that (veterinary) environment, I don't feel they are suitable for reptile keeping.
I'm guessing you mean that you think my heat mat doesn't provide a high enough temperature to help the snake fully digest their meal? I just never thought one of these heat mats would be that bad since they work perfectly for my mums Leopard Gecko and my Frogs who all live at extremely similar temps.
In this case I will do as I was going to do in the new viv and add in a low wattage bulb in addition to the heat mat and see what temps I get from that and take it from there. |
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2014 : 08:17:19
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I totally support what Gingerpony has said and know that she talks from experience, both with keeping corns and veterinary. I'm glad that you are reassessing how to heat your corns new viv. You need to remember that the diet and metabolism of snakes, leopard geckos and frogs is very different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the other.
One point, which I'm sure you'll have thought of, make sure that the bulb has a guard around it.
I do hope you're able to solve this issue and get the viv to the sort of temps your corn needs. Please let us know how you get on when you take your snake to be checked over by the vet. May be worth mentioning the frequent shedding, although this may resolve itself now the snake is living along.
Xxx
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 00:36:21
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Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to comment on this thread and offer advice. I truly appreciate each and every one of you doing so. I also appreciate that nobody here has taken me for some stupid reptile owner that didn't do research before buying an animal... or at least not openly anyway! lol! I can assure you that I did do a lot of research into all the reptiles I own before I bought them and have many books and have visited many forums and internet sites about them all. Trouble is I have been on other forums where if you dare ask a question you are automatically seen as not knowledgeable enough to own a reptile! Glad it's not like that here! :)
Not that she was a part of this story anyway but my other snake who was my first and has always lived alone is also doing fine. She's already got a big viv but is getting it redecorated very soon.
The other snake who lived with the one that died is still doing fine and following a delay due to some dodgy locking nuts on the new viv, she is going into it tomorrow. Thank you Kellog for pointing out about the guard for the bulb. I was going to do that anyway but it's still very considerate of you to point it out in case I had forgotten. |
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 08:31:58
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This forum has never been about flaming Drew, unlike another well known one I could mention  . All that we're concerned about is the well being of the snakes and you can't ensure that unless you offer not only advice but also support to the owner. It's been obvious from your comments how much you care and that you haven't gone into this without looking into it. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, there is a lot of conflicting information and misinformation out there and that causes problems. But what's important is that you are somewhere you feel comfortable asking questions, so keep asking them!
I'm glad both your snakes are doing well. Please let us know how the one 'left behind' adapts to her new viv. By the sounds of it there shouldn't be any issue  .
Xxx
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2014 : 13:19:01
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Well I got my surviving snake moved into her new viv last night and she seemed very happy to go off exploring as soon as I put her in.
So I went with the heat mat inside the wooden viv. I know that having it outside will provide no heat at all as wood won't conduct the heat. I was however concerned about the snake having direct contact with the heat mat if she burrows under the aspen so I wrapped the heat mat in several layers of paper towel and taped it all down securely so she can't crawl in there. I also made sure the tape was firmly down and that there were no gaps were she could put her head and get stuck.
I moved her in there last night so I wasn't able to check the temps as by that time the heat mat was off. So when I looked the morning after the heat mat had been on a while, I was alarmed to find the temps reading 35c! I have the thermometer probe sitting directly on top of the heat mat above the paper towel layers. So I moved back the aspen and used my heat gun directly on the heat mat which read only 30c. I then covered it over again with the aspen and checked again with the temp gun and it now read 26c. So according to my gun which I trust more than my thermometer, my snake can only feel temps of a max of 30c in there and that's right up on the heat mat. I have been keeping an eye on it today and even though my thermometer is fluctuating, every time I double check it with the gun, it's not getting any higher than 30c.
Kinda surprised as my thermometer is a digital one by Exo Terra which I had thought to be quite reliable. Maybe not so much in this case.
So at least in this new viv my snake can get temps up to 30c instead of the 26-27c she was getting in the faunarium. Then she can go off into the cooler areas if she wants less heat. I didn't want to disturb her today so I don't know where she chose to sleep/hide but she has a cave, a log and a little pot type thing, all of which she can curl up in. They are all in different temp spots in the viv so she can choose.
I also put a light in there as the viv is very dark without it even during the day. It's an old UVB bulb that was past it's UV date so only gives out light and not UV. Figured that was ok as Corn Snakes don't need UV anyway plus with it being that type of bulb it isn't giving out any real heat either and messing with the temps in the viv. |
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mrmagicpants
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2014 : 19:57:29
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| Hi Mate, I'm by know means an expert but it's worth bearing in mind that the substrate will act as insulation so while the temp on top may be lower underneath will get warmer. |
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Drew81
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2014 : 23:22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by mrmagicpants
Hi Mate, I'm by know means an expert but it's worth bearing in mind that the substrate will act as insulation so while the temp on top may be lower underneath will get warmer.
Yeah I checked it underneath the substrate just to be sure it wasn't too warm under there but after monitoring it for a whole day it can't seem to exceed 30c underneath the area of substrate where the mat is. There is only about a 1cm layer of substrate (Aspen) covering it but it's enough to make the temp on top of the substrate read at 26c. |
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I think shedding killed my Corn Snake somehow.
