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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
 Posted - 30/08/2011 : 23:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
Okay let me re do this all, much more simple so you can get it.
Yes feeding a snake is morally RIGHT but if there is no need why bother?
The mouse will have less stress by being killed more humanly and it's more humane on the snake.
I SAID IT IS RIGHT IF IT WON'T EAT ANYTHING ELSE as well.
Go easy on that keyboard chap, your gonna break it before long!
You are arguing around in circles, one minute your talking nonsense, then agreeing with someone pointing out you are talking nonsense. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - gmac on 31/08/2011 01:42:37 |
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 30/08/2011 : 23:21:19
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| Nope I never said it was wrong I just said why bother. |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 30/08/2011 : 23:42:50
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A lot of people, especially americans live feed because its beleived to be more natural, which it is to a point, its not stressful to the snake as long as the snake is feeding properly.
We do it generally only when the snake isnt feeding properly, and most of the time its only really royals and boas that we go down that route with, sometimes also baby hognoses. Royals are notoriously fussy feeders at times, and the scent of the live food along with the natural movements can trigger the feeding response, same with the boas and hoggies. Infact, certainly with boas and royals its almost an essential part of getting them feeding, all my baby boas and royals were started on live, and i dont have any fussy feeder royals that i bred. As a comparison, i took a baby royal from a friend which was being really fussy, would eat one week, then turn its nose up for 3 or 4 weeks, as soon as i got it, i started it on live, its not missed a feed since and has grown from 85g to 350g in a few months.
Dont mistake someone on youtube chucking a rabbit in with a burm with someone like me who live feeds when the situation calls for it.
Because of what people had said, ie corns cant hunt etc, i decided to do a little experiment, i was confident in what i said, but i was intrigued, so i live fed one of my corns, she was in a 4ft viv at the time. Shes not a shy feeder at the best of times anyway, so i was sure she wouldnt struggle. She proved that she is more than capable of hunting, she tracked the mouses every move across the viv and followed it into the hide, the mouse was dead in seconds. I will point out that i didnt do it for the hell of it, i did it to prove a point, which she did, and that point was that a 5yr+ female captive bred snake thats been fed defrost her entire life would be capable of tracking and killing an adult mouse, she was flawless.
Back on subject though, live feeding is generally a last resort, having said that i do feed my big boa live guinnea pigs, the reason for that is that i cant guarantee that i will be able to kill it quickly without causing excessive suffering, Mrs Boa is exceptional at her job, and again, is flawless.
So, having witnessed a lot of live feeding, i can assure you that the suffering is minimal.
No matter what anyone says, live feeding is always gonna be a hot topic, there are too many people who refuse to take snakes welfare into consideration, or are biased to the fact that the prey animals life is more valuable than the snakes, thats simply not the case, its a sad but inevitable fact that the mouse and rat are prey animals, they are food for carnivores higher up the food chain, which include snakes.
Incidentally, which do you think is worse..... A snake catching and killing a mouse, or a cat playing then killing a mouse???
So many people see a cat toying with a mouse and think 'oooh the cats playing with the mouse' they dont stop to think about the amount of fear and stress the mouse is under.
No matter what anyone says, live feeding will go on, there is absolutely nothing you can say to me for one that will stop me from live feeding, its a necessary evil. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 00:37:14
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| I agree with what you say but I have witnessed some incredibly slow killing snakes that have I guess half killed a mouse and then lost interest and that is why I prefer f/t although that's just my opinion and people can do as they please. |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 08:50:41
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depending on how much of a threat the prey is depends on how much effort the snake puts into subdueing it. Hence why Burms will eat live chicks alive, the chick cant hurt it to they dont waste the effort killing it, same with younger mice, if it cant hurt, they wont kill it, saves effort that they might need to fight off an attack. Obviously they dont know they are in no danger, its just instinct.
Which snakes did you see that didnt kill properly??? |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Mamma
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4494 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 09:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
depending on how much of a threat the prey is depends on how much effort the snake puts into subdueing it. Hence why Burms will eat live chicks alive, the chick cant hurt it to they dont waste the effort killing it, same with younger mice, if it cant hurt, they wont kill it, saves effort that they might need to fight off an attack. Obviously they dont know they are in no danger, its just instinct.
Which snakes did you see that didnt kill properly???
A trouser snake 
Ok ok I stop now  xxx |
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 11:44:39
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^LOL^
And it was a hognose. |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 13:46:01
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Hognose snakes aren't constrictors as much, they will regularly eat their prey while it's still moving or trying to escape. It's the envenomation that kills or subdues their prey.
I don't think there are many (if at all) venomous constrictors. |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 14:17:02
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quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
Well, the rodent especially if it's large may harm your snake also may have parasites and even if you do supervise it the rodent could scratch your snake in the blink of an eye.
bl**** h** i'm glad you told me!!!!!!!!!!
still doesn't explain how live-feeding isn't humane for the snake though
and what parasites might live food have that frozen or fresh-killed doesn't?
and on the subject of parasites, does that mean feeding wild, rifle-shot rabbits is fine just because they're dead? |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 21:24:52
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quote:
bl**** h** i'm glad you told me!!!!!!!!!!
still doesn't explain how live-feeding isn't humane for the snake though
and what parasites might live food have that frozen or fresh-killed doesn't?
and on the subject of parasites, does that mean feeding wild, rifle-shot rabbits is fine just because they're dead?
If you freeze it the parasites die and yes they can bite and scratch your snake. |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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fluffycorn
Yearling
United Kingdom
514 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 21:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mamma
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
depending on how much of a threat the prey is depends on how much effort the snake puts into subdueing it. Hence why Burms will eat live chicks alive, the chick cant hurt it to they dont waste the effort killing it, same with younger mice, if it cant hurt, they wont kill it, saves effort that they might need to fight off an attack. Obviously they dont know they are in no danger, its just instinct.
Which snakes did you see that didnt kill properly???
A trouser snake
Ok ok I stop now xxx
 LOL |
 
1.0.0 Amelanistic Corn Snake
0.1.0 Jack Russell Terrier |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 22:18:30
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quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
quote:
bl**** h** i'm glad you told me!!!!!!!!!!
still doesn't explain how live-feeding isn't humane for the snake though
and what parasites might live food have that frozen or fresh-killed doesn't?
and on the subject of parasites, does that mean feeding wild, rifle-shot rabbits is fine just because they're dead?
If you freeze it the parasites die and yes they can bite and scratch your snake.
Yes they can bite and scratch, the same way the snake can scratch itself on anything in the viv, or catch itself on something that you didnt notice.
Wrapping a snake up in cotton wool will not help at all.
Hognoses arent constrictors at all, they are rear fanged venemous, you want a venemous constrictor, think King Cobra.
you clearly dont see many hungry constrictors live feeding, you think there is time for a bite or a scratch???
And scratching??? seriously??? a mouse scratch does nothing to me, let alone a snake that is covered in scales, even biting, as i have already said, mice dont get time, and even if they did, i doubt they would get through the scales. Rats, for sure, they will go through almost anything, i been on the receiving end, damn painful, and straight to the bone. Hamsters are a grey area for me, i never used any, and most likely never will, they are pointless, i use multi's and mice live, although someone did donate some gerbils once, again, they didnt touch the sides, and as for harming the snake, really, they dont.
The story is very different if the snake is not feeding, some rodents can be uber aggressive and do some harm when cornered, but that why you supervise, to prevent that situation from happening.
To put into perspective, have you ever been kicked by a rabbit whilst trying to hold it down?? I have numerous times, and they are damn strong and rib your arms to shreds, yet Mrs Boa was kicked when she took an adult rabbit, and there were no marks at all, i saw a mouse bite down on the royal once, whilst being constricted, with the snake pressing the mouses mouth into its side, again, no marks, and i could see the mouse biting down.
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Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 22:27:51
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| No because I wouldn't go around pinning down rabbits... |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 22:34:35
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| consider yourself lucky then! For the record though, we have 14 adult rabbits, every single one of them had to be wormed every day, that involved holding them down to have it squirted down their necks! not nice, but necessary. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2011 : 23:57:10
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| I bet they're crafty little things as well. |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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Dancross0
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 10:53:51
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I've never live fed my Corn, never had to, but I have noticed a couple of things with store bought frozen mice, and mice that my cat has bought in.
Most of the time, my corn will strike and constrict store bought mice, but I have to wave them about a bit to get him to notice them. The wild mice (which have been frozen for 2 weeks) get taken almost immediately.
I think it's got to be something about the smell of them. Maybe the wild mice smell more natural?
Has anyone else noticed this? |
Aguna CB11 Anery - Typhon CB12 Amber - Plissken CB08 Carolina - Iara CB11 Caramel
Indra CB12 Lavender (?) - Evren CB12 Carolina (?) - Ophis CB11 Hypo Lavender - Sirae CB11 Ghost Motley
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Mamma
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4494 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 12:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dancross0
I've never live fed my Corn, never had to, but I have noticed a couple of things with store bought frozen mice, and mice that my cat has bought in.
Most of the time, my corn will strike and constrict store bought mice, but I have to wave them about a bit to get him to notice them. The wild mice (which have been frozen for 2 weeks) get taken almost immediately.
I think it's got to be something about the smell of them. Maybe the wild mice smell more natural?
Has anyone else noticed this?
Wait... these wild mice... they are caught by you then frozen.. not caught by your cats right? |
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Dancross0
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 12:05:29
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Yeah the cat brings mice in, the ones I can rescue get released. The ones that are too mangled get knocked on the head, washed, then frozen for 2 weeks.
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Aguna CB11 Anery - Typhon CB12 Amber - Plissken CB08 Carolina - Iara CB11 Caramel
Indra CB12 Lavender (?) - Evren CB12 Carolina (?) - Ophis CB11 Hypo Lavender - Sirae CB11 Ghost Motley
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Mamma
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4494 Posts |
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Dancross0
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 12:33:11
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The less mangled ones!
The half mice goes in the bin, |
Aguna CB11 Anery - Typhon CB12 Amber - Plissken CB08 Carolina - Iara CB11 Caramel
Indra CB12 Lavender (?) - Evren CB12 Carolina (?) - Ophis CB11 Hypo Lavender - Sirae CB11 Ghost Motley
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Live feeding.
